Jake
Administrator 
Playtesting the latest build of the game
Posts: 385
Home Planet: Jondd
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: Atari ST
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1988
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Post by Jake on Sept 7, 2015 21:01:12 GMT
This soap-box rant was included in one of the New Flight Officer Lounge discussions, but I figured I'd post it here so others might chime in. It's an interesting subject that Sundog players can appreciate, as we are mostly veterans of the Golden Age of Computer Gaming, and have watched computer games evolve over the decades from primordial Pong to stoneage Infocom games to medieval Sundog-type adventures to the revolutionary 3D graphics of Doom to the modern realism of Call of Duty.
(gets on soapbox)
Today's games are so ultra detailed and graphically precise that the player uses practically no imagination or brainpower. It's like watching a movie - it is a passive visual experience that requires a low cognitive load.
On the other hand, the games from the Golden Age of Computers, with their "svelt dot-like figures," REQUIRED the player's imagination to flesh out the pixels and blobs of color into people and dragons. This engaged the imagination's gears to spin in harmony with the game's machinery, drawing the player actively into the game. The player was not just passively observing the game - the player was an integral, necessary part of how the game functioned. I think it was Infocom, the legendary publisher of text adventure games, that put it best... Their games used the most powerful graphics processor in the world: the human brain. And think about that - anyone who played Infocom's classics has extremely fond, powerful memories of these adventures. If Floyd's unexpected death in Planetfall or the thrill of solving the riddle of Zork's Flood Control Dam #3 were rendered in crisp 2015-style 3D graphics, would they be as intimately remembered and freighted with personal emotion over 30 years later?
It's ironic that the relentless forward march of game technology widens the bridge between the game itself and the player's imagination and emotions, thus robbing the visuals of the human element that made visually primitive games from the 80s far more effective than their modern-day decedents.
(gets off soapbox)
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Kailef
BETA MANAGER 
Vanguard of the leading edge
Posts: 427 
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: Apple
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1985 (I think)
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Post by Kailef on Sept 8, 2015 21:28:42 GMT
I have given nearly the exact same speech to people before! Did you steal my soapbox? Give me that back!
But seriously, I completely agree. That said, let's not forget about the many poorly made games from back in that "golden age". *chuckle* There were plenty, after all! I fondly remember great games like the Zork series and Planetfall, Ultima, Wizardry, Sundog, Spaceward Ho, Dark Castle, The Dungeon Revealed, the list goes on. But there were plenty of games that were awful too.
In defense of the modern era, there have been some well-made games that I really enjoyed. However, the ratios are way off, there's way more junk than there is good stuff. Nowadays games are spewed out of Electronic (F)Arts on a near-constant basis, and most of them can't keep my attention for more than five minutes.
Coding a game is just not the same process any more - There was a time when one guy, or a very small team of guys, could write a game. Now, most people that work on a game just handle a small piece of the pie, physics or character animations or 3d world design or combat mechanic, or sound effects, etc, almost ignorant of what the whole is going to look like when they finish.
That's why I enjoy Indie games so much. They are still written by a small team or even one guy, and generally don't feature eye-popping graphics and instead focus on something interesting or clever like a cool mechanic or an engrossing story.
Anyhow. (/soapbox)
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Jake
Administrator
Playtesting the latest build of the game
Posts: 385
Home Planet: Jondd
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: Atari ST
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1988
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Post by Jake on Sept 9, 2015 19:34:37 GMT
I just borrowed the soapbox. Here it is...
Good points!!! Also, I don't want to sound like I'm knocking modern games in that they have no value. There are good games created today that I highly respect. My point was that higher level graphics --usually-- means far less player investment on the cognitive level, since the player does not have to become part of the visual experience through the use of active imagination. What you need is all on the screen already.
And yes, indie games with small staffs often create quality that rivals or exceed their big-budget peers because of that personalized focus on clever or unique elements. Indie games rule!
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Kailef
BETA MANAGER
Vanguard of the leading edge
Posts: 427
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: Apple
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1985 (I think)
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Post by Kailef on Sept 9, 2015 20:02:45 GMT
Talking just about graphics, I agree. You of course need a great story or a really fun mechanic or something similarly engrossing, but if you have all that and present it with a simplistic graphic style, your imagination has a lot more to do. Final Fantasy II/III (4 and 6 in Japan) are a good example of that. The graphics are more advanced than those of Sundog or Ultima 5, but not much. Those games really connect you to the characters, despite their sprites and background being primitive.
I'm trying to think about what it would have been like to play one of my very favorite games, such as Ultima 5, in a hyper-detailed 3D environment, with the gameplay being identical. Or even Sundog, played in a completely 3D world, where I explore each planet like I was playing an FPS, return to my ship, walk around the inside in 3D, and go to the cockpit for a 3d space sim style experience. Again, with all that hyper-realism, would I enjoy the game?
The answer is yes, I think I would - But if I had never played the original Sundog, and I my first experience with Sundog was this hyper-realistic AAA version, would it hold the same place in my heart as the original Sundog?
I don't know. I'd really have to think about it.
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nate
Beta Tester 
Limping in a ship full of shunts
Posts: 13
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Post by nate on Sept 10, 2015 10:46:29 GMT
This discussion is basically the computer gaming equivalent of the debate over whether books are better than movies. Personally I call it on a case by case basis, but sometimes it's a really close call. For example, I read "The Princess Bride" when I was a teenager and I've always been partial to the book, but the movie is charming too. In most cases though, yeah the version that promotes imagination and creativity is the better choice.
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Kailef
BETA MANAGER
Vanguard of the leading edge
Posts: 427
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: Apple
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1985 (I think)
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Post by Kailef on Sept 10, 2015 15:16:06 GMT
In most cases I personally prefer a book to a movie, but there are rare cases where the performance of the actors or the special effects bring something to the story that I wouldn't have imagined on my own. Princess Bride happens an outstanding example. So is James Cameron's Avatar, for a completely different reason. Usually though, the insight into the minds of the characters that is provided by a book trumps whatever can be provided the visual aspects of a movie for me.
When it comes to games though, is it the graphics that makes the difference, or is it the depth and interactivity of the game?
It's interesting to think about.
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mackie
Local Moderator 
Hang out by the bank if you have good aim!
Posts: 42
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Post by mackie on Sept 10, 2015 16:27:10 GMT
I think that a first person game based on Sundog would be awesome. Add some Oculus Rift love...lol. Roaming the cities, blasting thieves, bargaining in the bars, and blasting pirates in your ship! There are several graphic engines that would suit that, quake 4, and the engine used in the original Mafia game (one of my favorites) Are you listening game developers? So many of the space sims fall flat even compared to Sundog......the depth is just not there.
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Kailef
BETA MANAGER
Vanguard of the leading edge
Posts: 427
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: Apple
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1985 (I think)
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Post by Kailef on Sept 30, 2015 23:23:11 GMT
Complexity masked in a deceptively simplistic interface. That often makes for a fun game.
Also... <coughs, waves cane> Get off my lawn! Damn kids!
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Nanos
Beta Tester
Posts: 4
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: TOS
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1986
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Post by Nanos on Jun 3, 2016 8:32:38 GMT
Some of the things I don't like about modern games:
Lack of AI players. (Battlefield series, after 2, no AI Bots..)
Lack of intelligent AI. (Not all games, for example Unreal Tournament series, the AI there is amazing!)
Huge download size ! (Not everyone is at the end of a fibre broadband connection, and it can take a week or more for someone to download a 50Gb game file !)
Bugs... (That never ever get fixed ! in particular ones that mean they only work on a particular brand of graphics card, be it ATI or NVIDIA.. bit of a problem if you like two games, but they only work on a specific card each !)
Need for a particular OS. (Like, doesn't work on XP, you must have Windows 10...) + (Elite Dangerous is a good example, not supported on Vista, but can work, but only if you have upgraded not OS approved graphics drivers.)
Large resource requirements, not all of us have a 6 core 3Ghz CPU with 32Gb of RAM to play with. (Diablo 3 is perhaps a good example there where it only played well if you had either an SSD drive, or a 10k RPM HD as it was so disk intensive. (Sundog was also rather disk intensive on the Atari ST..) + (Even then, I could only get Diablo 3 to play nicely if I defragged my HD so all the game files was on the outside edge of the HD for max speed!)
Sudden big changes, Diablo 3 for example, had a wonderful (And the reason I got the game in the first place!) player auction system, which they then scrubbed..
Multiplayer where the game company pulls the servers after X years, so its hard for players to play against each other.
24/7 internet connection needed to play the game.. (Elite Dangerous for example, even in single player mode..)
Easy to cheat/hack.. (Elite Dangerous springs to mind there..)
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Francois424
Beta Tester
Posts: 91
Home Planet: Snowball
Played SUNDOG on what OS?: AtariST
What year did you first play SUNDOG?: 1986
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Post by Francois424 on Nov 21, 2020 23:36:53 GMT
I think the main problems with modern games are : - Wanting to Appeal to Joe, your 7yo brother with a short attention span that played 100 AtariST games per day for 5 min each.... And to 78yo grandma that wants the game to play itself without challenge and having to think or note things. Yet both still want the end-game trophies or do raids in World of Warcraft. - The loss of the "SLOW GAMEPLAY" found in many old games from the eighties. Dungeon Master, Carrier Command, Midwinter, Sundog are all games that play slow. You can rush at times but stuff still takes time to happen and you have to go with the flow. This is why we go from UFO: Enemy unknown of 1991(?) being a tactical masterpiece of Plopping a base anywhere on earth (even Hawaii or Antarctica) and then watching the GeoScape to spot glimpses of alien activity and sending patrols with 14 marines and 2 tanks over that spot for a few RL minutes... To that utter garbage of a remake we got around 2011 where you had 4-6 dudes, pre-generated encounters where aliens dont move until you come into view then promptly jump you, and have character classes and severely limited inventories/customization options. This is why we go from Final Fantasy XI:Treasure of Aht Urghan and WoW:The Burning Crusade to WoW Legion and FFXI post-abyssea where your look at your level1 newbie character in rags, sneeze for a second or 2, and then marvel at the fact it's now a max level dressed in epics. There's no journey, everything is effortless and far too quick, economies are meaningless as you progress so fast the only thing worth getting are those top items at the end-game. So crafting is useless too for the same reason. In single player games, the worlds are super small, full of invisible plot walls and an innumerable list of bugs which for the most part aren't fixed. No exploration, Railroad track from A to Z where you are taken by the hand and shown everything effortlessly. Or it's super grind intensive just because, or maybe to get you to buy the multitude of DLCs and now Lootbox (yes, even in single player games now). It's a mess, there's nothing for me out there anymore except some very rare jewels (Like "Kerbal Space Program", "Cities Skylines", "Hearts of Iron 4" or "Endless Sky"). No real good fight combat sim (like RedBaron 3D), no good submarine sim either (like Silent Service II), almost no strategy and nothing like the slow-game titles mentioned above. I spend more time playing Dungeon Master, Carrier Command, SunDog (duh). Sometimes I'll play Midwinter again but that is very rare as I played that one to death from 1991 to 1993 and I feel I've done all I wanted with it... than I play new titles. I don't mind Sid Meier's Pirates! as well from time to time, but the nice graphical remake is lacking my favorite era (1560) and does not have Treasure Fleet and Silver Train... Another remake that removed stuff from the original for no reason (Why do they keep doing this, stop it already!). Ultima 4/5 and the Phantasie series also keeps me busy. I'm wanting a slow game. In fact if this remake of SunDog had a version for slow warp (like Startrek instead of BSG), and it took 10-30sec per 1 distance unit, it would be even better; Warping to Enlie could take nearly 5min, but you can sleep it off if you're in a RL hurry to get there ! [ EDIT ] Now that I think about it, this might explain why I migrated to MMOs from early 2000's until ~2010 when everything started getting quick again, and I switched back to Retro-gaming  |
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Post by DVT7125 on Feb 7, 2023 1:39:12 GMT
I think the main problems with modern games are : - Wanting to Appeal to Joe, your 7yo brother with a short attention span that played 100 AtariST games per day for 5 min each.... And to 78yo grandma that wants the game to play itself without challenge and having to think or note things. Yet both still want the end-game trophies or do raids in World of Warcraft. - The loss of the "SLOW GAMEPLAY" found in many old games from the eighties. Dungeon Master, Carrier Command, Midwinter, Sundog are all games that play slow. You can rush at times but stuff still takes time to happen and you have to go with the flow. This is why we go from UFO: Enemy unknown of 1991(?) being a tactical masterpiece of Plopping a base anywhere on earth (even Hawaii or Antarctica) and then watching the GeoScape to spot glimpses of alien activity and sending patrols with 14 marines and 2 tanks over that spot for a few RL minutes... To that utter garbage of a remake we got around 2011 where you had 4-6 dudes, pre-generated encounters where aliens dont move until you come into view then promptly jump you, and have character classes and severely limited inventories/customization options. This is why we go from Final Fantasy XI:Treasure of Aht Urghan and WoW:The Burning Crusade to WoW Legion and FFXI post-abyssea where your look at your level1 newbie character in rags, sneeze for a second or 2, and then marvel at the fact it's now a max level dressed in epics. There's no journey, everything is effortless and far too quick, economies are meaningless as you progress so fast the only thing worth getting are those top items at the end-game. So crafting is useless too for the same reason. In single player games, the worlds are super small, full of invisible plot walls and an innumerable list of bugs which for the most part aren't fixed. No exploration, Railroad track from A to Z where you are taken by the hand and shown everything effortlessly. Or it's super grind intensive just because, or maybe to get you to buy the multitude of DLCs and now Lootbox (yes, even in single player games now). It's a mess, there's nothing for me out there anymore except some very rare jewels (Like "Kerbal Space Program", "Cities Skylines", "Hearts of Iron 4" or "Endless Sky"). No real good fight combat sim (like RedBaron 3D), no good submarine sim either (like Silent Service II), almost no strategy and nothing like the slow-game titles mentioned above. I spend more time playing Dungeon Master, Carrier Command, SunDog (duh). Sometimes I'll play Midwinter again but that is very rare as I played that one to death from 1991 to 1993 and I feel I've done all I wanted with it... than I play new titles. I don't mind Sid Meier's Pirates! as well from time to time, but the nice graphical remake is lacking my favorite era (1560) and does not have Treasure Fleet and Silver Train... Another remake that removed stuff from the original for no reason (Why do they keep doing this, stop it already!). Ultima 4/5 and the Phantasie series also keeps me busy. I'm wanting a slow game. In fact if this remake of SunDog had a version for slow warp (like Startrek instead of BSG), and it took 10-30sec per 1 distance unit, it would be even better; Warping to Enlie could take nearly 5min, but you can sleep it off if you're in a RL hurry to get there ! [ EDIT ] Now that I think about it, this might explain why I migrated to MMOs from early 2000's until ~2010 when everything started getting quick again, and I switched back to Retro-gaming I totally agree with everyone's points! Now yes, I do have to admit, I do play 1 "Modern" indie game with graphics that make my new build emit blue smoke at 60 Celsius.
Everyone's reaction OMG WHAT DID HE JUST SAY YOUR BANNED!! GET OUT!!
*cluke* *ow* Anyways, sometimes I mean sometimes there are exempt games, like "Cities Skylines" (I stopped playing it too expensive.) "KSP", Objects in space (I can't give it much credit, because it got abandoned. But has the retro graphics like sundog graphics), Space Crew Legendary Edition, and if you like looter shooters Everspace 2. 🧑<-- This being me I like looter shooters. *Music stops* GET OUT OF HERE RIGHT NOW!! *Gets smacked* *ow*.
Alright off the soap box. *Boom*
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